Burnout Gave Me My Life Back — Katrin Tschürtz

Welcome. This show is for people in the middle of something difficult. If you're navigating burnout, a career change, or rebuilding something that's not working, you're listening to Share Inspire Explore. I'm Chris Wilson. I've been through it. And I built the Where I Am At Community because I couldn't find the conversation I actually needed. Season two is guest led. In each episode, I sit down with someone who's lived it or studied one of these phases. Recognize. Reset. Reinvent. Real conversations. Nothing packaged. Let's get into it. Welcome to the Share Inspire and Explore podcast. Today, we have the pleasure of welcoming Katrin Tuarts, founder of Kindfulness.at, a transformative initiative dedicated to fostering personal and corporate well-being through

mindfulness and compassion. With a rich background in coaching, consulting, and training, Katrin specializes in guiding individuals, teams, and organizations towards authentic growth, conflict management, and resilience. Her innovative approach combines mindfulness and awareness-based techniques with elements of art therapy, meditation, and breathwork. In this episode, Katrin will share her personal journey of overcoming burnout and how it inspired the creation of kindfulness. Welcome, Katrin. As someone who's walked through the path of burnout and found a way forward, your story is incredibly important. And I'm truly honored you've come on my podcast today. And we're excited to hear your story. Thank you, Chris, and thank you for being here. I think it's really important what you're doing. Thank you. Thank you. And just for you and the listeners, I just want to give you an idea of the

format. So the first section is Share, which I will invite you to tell your burnout story from the period running up to and when you hit burnout. And then the Inspire section will be about how you got help, you know, which tools, resources you use to help recover. And finally, Explore, which will cover how you continue to manage your health now and your strategies. And where we'll talk about how you're thriving with kindfulness. Does that sound good? That sounds good. Great.

So let's start with Share. Can you tell us about the time leading up to your burnout? You know, what were the signs and how did you feel during that period?

What were the signs? There were a lot of signs, actually. And I didn't really listen to the signs that were coming up. So to start with that. I remember it was like, it was a long period. It was months that I was prepared for my total breakdown. But I was so much into working and into functioning. So I didn't listen, didn't say no. I even took on more jobs, although I felt already really exhausted. So this is one thing, exhausted. Then I was tired all the time. I was completely tired. There wasn't much that I could do. Eating a little bit, but even eating was a problem because it was quite unhealthy how I was eating, you know, usually sitting in front of my computer. And maybe you know

that having some sandwiches and really not eating. And you know, that's what is so important. But we come to that later. And this tiredness, this constant tiredness. And at the beginning, it was like I was really sleeping sometimes over 10 hours or so, even 14 hours. But I woke up and I was still tired. You know, I was working and I had, I had long days. Sometimes I came back at nine, 10, or even some days at 11 o'clock. I was just quickly eating something, went to bed. There were no social. That was also like I didn't have time with my job. It was super busy. So there, there wasn't time for social context. And at some point there were no energy for social context anymore. So I was just working, sleeping,

but the sleep, although I was sleeping at the beginning a lot, it didn't help me. I was still tired. In the morning, I felt totally, I don't know. I hope you helped me a little bit with when, when, when, when my English words are not coming so that you helped me, but I was, I was, it felt like empty. Yeah, that was, that was, was another step like this emptiness. I mean, first with the sleep, I was so, it was something, it was like, what's going on? Like this emptiness or this, that I, that I felt there, there was something going away from me, you know? Because I didn't have, like, I'm losing all my energy. I sometimes have the, the picture of a computer

breakdown, you know, when the computer just breaks down and you cannot run it again, you press the button, but it doesn't come up again. And so, so, so like, even like the memory is gone because that was another thing that was quite intense is at some point I couldn't remember things anymore from work. I was, I was responsible for finance. And one thing was like, uh, the balance of the bank account. I remember, I sometimes checked it, I don't know, 10 times a day. I couldn't remember it anymore. And it was so important in my work, you know, really important things that I would always remember before. I couldn't remember anymore. And I, I really watched myself losing this memory. You're like

really losing all the, the energy. And another thing was, I remember was that I was all, that I started to only wear black. So I didn't wear any other clothes anymore. And I learned that, that black is some kind of protection color as well, you know, protect also, you know, when we lose someone, it's, it's a protection color. It helps us to protect ourselves, you know? Uh, and I really needed to more and more protect myself because I got very thin skin as well, you know, with everything that was going on because in the next step, um, I couldn't sleep anymore. You know, first I was sleeping like hours, many hours longer than I usually sleep. And then there came the point

where I could only sleep from one till three o'clock in the morning. So only for two hours. If you mentioned you worked in, you're responsible for finance. I mean, what industry were you working in at the time? Which kind of work factors were contributing to your burnout? Were you overworked? Was it just, or just simply too much? If you can maybe just explain that.

So I was overworked and I did take care a little bit about myself because I asked my boss to employ another person or two because it's too much. I was working in the movie industry at that time. And, uh, it's normal that you have long hours in this, in this industry, but still it was, it was too much really. As I said, I was for a long period of time, I was working. So I don't know, to come back home at nine o'clock, it was something normal. Sometimes even on the weekends, I had very long days and yeah, that was the working situation. But on the other hand, you know,

it was also myself because I took on jobs. I remember there was somebody leaving like the responsible for the accounting. Ah, yeah, I take this. And there was somebody else leaving. Okay, I take on this. So it was awesome. You know, this was my pattern as well. So that I took, I took on jobs, you know, and I can do this and I can do everything. So it was also part of, of my pattern that, um, uh, maybe started already in childhood, you know, don't want to go back there and it's not so, but it's, it's interesting to know where it comes from. You know, you are someone, if you are really working hard and if you, if you help others and if you manage things and,

you know, and it does, it does feel good for a time, for some time as well, you get, you get rewarded and you get, uh, accepted and appreciated. But at some time, but it, but it changes then when it gets too much and you can't handle everything anymore. And we have just a certain kind, certain number of energy, you know, certain percentage, you know, we have this hundred percent of energy. Uh, and, uh, if you, if you try to do 120%, or if you try to go over the 100 that you have, you know, there's some, there's only some energy, uh, then the system collapses, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I guess we can, we can handle this in periods of important rollouts and projects, or in your case at the time, a movie production, but this is, this is fine if it's temporary or, but if that becomes the norm, yeah, we all know what happens then.

What about the workplace? Was there, were there any other factors apart from your inability to say no or taking on too much? As you mentioned, um, you mentioned there weren't enough people in the team. So that was also a factor, right? So there wasn't enough resources made available to do the work. Did anyone mention at the time, are you sure, Catherine, you can handle this? Was there any dialogue at work? As I mentioned, there was just this dialogue where I asked for more people because, you know, people left and I took over and I had then five different jobs on my contract. And I mentioned, and I said, I really said, it's, I mean, I saw it's really too much now. And I said something,

but it didn't happen. It was always like, ah, you know, we don't have enough resources, financial resources at the moment. And so, and we will, we will do that. And then there were people, some people were abroad, they were in Africa for the, for the shootings. And so, and also the director and my boss. So it was also like, yeah, yeah. When we are coming back, we will look into that, you know.

Did it ever happen? No, it didn't happen. It's really, you know, what I learned a lot is not, not blame someone, you know, it's never, there's never just one side, you know, we always have to look at both sides.

But there should have, because, you know, when somebody is shouting already, I need some help, you know, I really need some help. Then this should be taken into account and there should be more empathy, you know, that it's a, it's a big lack of empathy as well that I can see, not just in my case, you know, I talk to many people. So it's really like a lack of appreciation, really.

Sometimes it looks like you get it, you know, but when it's really needed, it's, it's not, it's not there because my boss, you know, when I was there later in the evening, he brought me a glass of wine and some snacks, you know, so it looked like it is some kind of help and appreciation. I don't want to blame him. Maybe that he saw that that's what helps, but you know, like she's here again at nine o'clock. I mean, that's strange, you know? So I really missed that. And, and, and yeah, I mean, I think I have to mention this here because a few years ago, so this was in 2010 and a few years ago, I almost had my second burnout. So it was a

lighter version because I learned a lot, but still what I could see is that, that people, when you give a lot, so responsible people like the owners and the CEO, what do they do? They really, they use you, you know, I don't think they do it maybe even not on purpose, but they see, ah,

she, she, she really takes over a lot of things and she does, she works, you know? So you're, you're, you're, you're a capable person. We can rely on you, Katrin. Yeah. We can give, I need this job done and I need it done to good quality. So I know Katrin can get it done.

So yeah. And she stays, you know? Yeah. I don't know what you're saying about the blame, but I think, uh, if we don't speak up and say, I can do this, I just, I'm a bit overloaded with work. Maybe we can reprioritize. Were you that person that could say that, or were you just taking on the work? Was this a contributing factor? Yeah, that was. I was very good in doing that and taking on more jobs. But then there is this point, maybe you've experienced it as well, is when you get angry against, uh, the people you're working with because they don't really see what's going on. When this part comes in, like really angry and

disappointment. Yeah. You resent your colleagues. They don't take on the extra work. And then you feel like the martyr. Yeah. And then you see also things that are not going very well. I also, because I, I was also in my, in my, in the second burnout, you know, I was also responsible for, for HR. And I could also see that there was a change in how, how people were treated in the company, you know, and, uh,

and I couldn't, I like, that was not my values and that's not how I entered in this company. You know, there was also this caring for the other people and seeing that there was a change in values that it's not about caring, it's about exploiting or so, you know, and when that came in as well, I was really, my whole system was, oh my God, what's going on here? And I felt really, as I said, there was the anger and the disappointment. And it was like, this was eating in myself, you know, I could really, there was something that was, was then it started and how could, can I change that? Right. And I was, when I came back from work, I was, I was in these dialogues with my, with the CEO,

you know, how can change the situation and what I will tell him and that this is not good and whatever. And it was like a constant thing because I really felt that there was a big change, not just in HR, but also in other things, because we really tried to bring something good in the company and it was destroyed immediately. And from one to the other second, there was, was a different atmosphere.

And that was really hurting me. And that was some kind of emotional burnout experience that I had then. That was also interesting. And, uh, what was also interesting, you couldn't talk to these people. I think sometimes there are people that sit in roles that can really take decisions in a company. There is some kind of personalities and they, again, you can't blame them because they have a certain personality and it's impossible to, to really talk about things. That was, what was I experienced. If you're facing a certain type or certain types of personality, it's impossible to, to change something you can only leave. That's what I also experienced.

Let's talk about the second burnout. What was the moment you realized something had to change and, and what was that like for you? That was, that was interesting because I felt it much better. I felt it. I felt, you know, like going quickly back to my first burnout is like what I experienced as well was I had panic attacks.

So, so what I wanted to say, and I never had this before that. I remember I had my first in the underground and I didn't know what's, what's happening with me. You know, what's going on here? I was totally panicked and I had to, to run out of the station and it was really crazy. I, there was something, something happening with me at a second that I experienced that I had. It was like a heart attack. You know, I had a swollen tongue and, uh, I was like in a shocking situation. And the funny part is you go to the doctor and there's nothing wrong with you. You know, they check on you. Everything was

fine, but what the body does and the body gives us so many signs. That's where I want to go. So I got so many signs from my body, you know, and I, I didn't listen to them. And with my second burnout learned already some things. I learned that my body was telling me get exhausted. I get tired again. That was one thing. And also what I learned from my burnout. And that is so that the most, most important thing is that I have to take care about myself. It's about self care. That's the most important thing. That was the turning point in my first burnout. I was in a therapy hotel in the mountains. Okay. And I thought, you know, the therapists, they have to help me. And so, you know,

the thinking somebody else has to help me. And my turning point was there when I realized that it's me and I, I am allowed to take responsibility for me. That was my turning point. And then the fun factor started, you know, I can create, I am the creator of my life. And what is really important to me, what is really important and what is really important in this short life, you know, where do I want to focus? And that helped me with my second burnout because I was immediately taking care of myself. I had again, five jobs on my contract or six, I don't remember. So it was crowdfunding, it was HR, it was sales for two different countries. I was responsible for finance. So it was again,

had marketing responsible, many jobs. And immediately I went, you know, it took me a little while, you know, because you still, I have all these jobs, but then I was like, I don't need that anymore. And I don't want to play that games and these games anymore, being responsible. And I went and said, you know, I don't want to do this job anymore. And this job and this, I think these two jobs here that I'm focusing on, it's enough for a full-time job. You know, I really learned to take care of myself. It took me a little bit to get my energy back, but I immediately stopped and did take care of myself. So that's very important. So I listened to the science.

Great. Super. And as you mentioned, panic attacks, knowing you since 2024, it's hard to imagine you having a panic attack. You seem just so grounded and calm all the time. But that's true. You know, you're, you're taking places. You've never, you know, never been before with the panic attacks in there. You know, definitely something's wrong. And before we go into the inspire section on how you recovered, how was that impacting your personal and professional life? If we go back to the first burnout, were you, were you short with colleagues? Um, when you went home, how was your behavior? It was obviously you were not being yourself having panic attacks for the first time, but can you

explain your relationships at work and at home? Yeah. I really stepped back from my relationships. So I had at work, you know, so you have to work in a team. So you still have relationships until somehow you have to have them. They are there, but, uh, I felt quite lonely. There was my big work and I am the one, you know, like I have to do most of the work and I, you know, you feel like, uh, some kind of victim, it starts this victim feeling. And that does something with, uh, with, it does something with the people you work with, you know, when you are in this energy, some kind of negative energy, I would

call it, you know, you're really in this feeling, uh, feeling so bad and alone and, and, and, and they are all having, looks like they're all having fun and, and you just have to work and you don't even, you get super stressed, you know, with everything and you don't look up anymore. You don't go with them for a coffee or so you just stay. And so you really withdraw from our relationships and you don't do that just at work. I also did that with my friends and I I'm, I'm a very social person. I have, I have lots of friends and I'm in different groups and I remember one situation where I was invited at

the birthday party of a good friend of mine and I felt already, you know, first of all, I didn't want it to go there and then it's, it's very good friend of mine and I try it, you know, and I could even see you. I thought the others are, the others don't want to talk with me, you know, but actually it was me that you get, you get such a different view on yourself, you know, you really start, I don't know if you're experiencing, to dislike yourself and you think the others don't like you anymore. It's because you stop loving and liking and you are, you are so much, and your inner critic takes over and that's again this, if you show this energy to somebody, they don't know how to deal

with you. And I think, I remember this birthday party, there were some friends of mine that didn't know how to deal with me because I didn't know how to deal and to talk to them. And I,

uh, maybe even my language, maybe I wasn't very nice and kind because some said afterwards, what happened to you? You know, I mean, you talked in a very strange way to me or you said strange thing, you know, that I don't remember anymore, but I thought they don't like me. It's because I didn't like me. That was very obvious. And what happened to me as well is that I was in a relationship. Also during this period before my total breakdown, just about a month before I, I stepped out of this relationship also. So I, I, I stopped that. So that, that was, that was also a part of this burnout. A lot, a lot to deal with at once. Right. Uh, but I'm sure a lot of the

listeners and viewers can relate to those behaviors. Um, especially the negative self-talk. Uh, I've mentioned that on, on, uh, some of my podcasts already. It really beats you down. And then as you said, if you can't love yourself, then being in social situations, like a birthday party, it's, it's hard for others to know how to react around you. Yeah. Yeah. And, and with me, there was only, you know, I didn't tell anybody how I feel even when I realized already that something is wrong with me. I just opened to my best friend. There was only one person in the end that knew about what's happening, what's going on here. Okay. And it takes a lot of energy. I don't know if you also,

because you still try to function and you still try to function, function, function. And I remember this friend of mine said, let's go on a holiday for a week. And I took one week of holiday and I had several breakdowns in this week of holiday and I didn't go back because she sent me then to the doctor. So I like, I went on sick leave and this is also withdrawal. Then you are at home. But what I did is I asked him to send me the work home. So I didn't really stop. I continued working, you know, from home, but I couldn't really work anymore. I don't know if, if you have experienced the same,

but I had to work at home. I could do a little bit, but you know, this was so low in energy that I couldn't really, really work. You know how I did before it was just a mini things that I managed, but still I said, please send me the work, send me the files, you know? Yeah. And it helped me to go even deeper into the burnout, you know, all this, everything I did. Yeah. Helped me a little bit to go even deeper.

A trigger warning for this next section. Katrin shares something that took real courage to say out loud. A point in her story where things became very dark and she didn't want to be here anymore.

If any part of what she describes sounds familiar to you, I want you to know you're not alone. Please reach out to someone you trust and professional help in your area. What Katrin shares is about where she was. And this is a story what came after. Let's continue.

So let's, let's, let's go to the deepest depths. That's a phrase of your burnout. Did you go just completely shut down? Your, your, your good friend obviously saw the signs enforcing or

recommending a holiday and then you're going in on sick leave. But what was the real moment where you said, okay, something's not right here. There's something has to change. Can you just maybe describe that moment before we go into the inspire section? How you got help?

What's interesting is that I'm, so I think it was this lack of sleep that really did a lot with me. And that, that brought me also the lack of sleep, uh, the panic attacks that brought me really into depression, like deep depression. Uh, and there was, yeah, at some point I didn't want to live anymore. There was nothing, you know, I was like, I was just sitting on my sofa or lying in bed. I didn't want it to go out anymore. I couldn't even go to the supermarket anymore. I remember went in the supermarket. It was too much for me. Uh, and I went back home. So there was like, there was nothing. There were, I didn't have any wishes anymore. There was nothing. There was nothing that I was really

looking forward to. And what I did, there were some little things that I was trying to do some alternative ways. So the one thing was, I said to my friend, I don't want to go in a clinic. So please prevent me. So protect me. So I don't want to go in a clinic. Okay. That was the one thing. Uh, I think where there was something, what did I do? You know? And I went to a craniosacral therapist because I had a problem with my back.

If, um, sorry to interrupt. What's a craniosacral? It's, uh, some kind of, uh, therapy. It's not a massage, but often like some physiotherapists are using it. It's some gentle touching of the body where they try to somehow help you to heal, uh, problems from your physical body. And, uh, I went to a physiotherapist and he said, uh, and a podologist, and they asked me, well, try that out. Maybe that helps you. And this person, and I went there, uh, once a week and this person said at some point, she said, uh, I don't know, but somehow I'm always losing you. You be here, but I'm always losing you. It's like, you're not here, you know, you're not really here. And I had this breakdown where

I opened to her that, uh, you know, that I don't really see any point of being here anymore. And that was a tour that helped me. This breakdown there helped me because she said, no, there is a place in the mountains. There's a therapy place and I know the person that runs it. And if you want, I can get in contact with her. Maybe you can go there. So this was a turning point, um, to help. So to really get help. And I went to this place then, yeah, which is, that was, that's her, that saved my life. I always say like going there at this five weeks that I stayed at this place that

saved my life. That's great. And are you still in contact with this lady? It seems that's a really, really important turning point. As you mentioned, uh, I'm not in contact with her, uh, anymore, but I think it was in, was it in 2020 or I think it was in 2020. I, uh, somehow, I think it was via Facebook. I saw her again and I contacted her and we went for a walk together.

I expressed my gratefulness to her. So I had the chance to tell her how important it was like, um, that she gave me the space to break down in her,

in her place, you know, and she could hold the space. That's also important, you know, to come somewhere person that can hold the space and even had advice where I could go. Yeah.

So I had the chance to thank her. Yeah. Even though you said to your friend, make sure I don't go to a clinic. Yeah. Because it wasn't the clinic in the end, you know,

it wasn't, I didn't go to a clinic. It was, um, it's, it's a private therapy hotel. And I have to say, I have to mention, you know, in 2010, there were not so burnout.

People talked already about it, but it was still, you know, um, it was not so, so, so common like you hear it today, you know? Yeah. And there was some therapy, yeah. In 2019, 2019, it was defined.

It was defined organization. Exactly. So that was nine years before. And there were already some places from the, that you could go from the insurance, you know, but they told me they don't have, they don't have a free spot. So I have to wait for six months or a year.

And I was really in a very bad situation. And I thought, and I really tried, you know, it was so much work to go there and to ask if I can have a rehabilitation, if I, if, if I can get a rehabilitation. I remember, I mean, I don't know if you remember how, how difficult it was to do little things, you know? And then I called there and then I went there and I remember how hard that was. And then they said, they don't have, they can't help me. You know, I have to wait. And I was like, I have to wait at home now, six months or a year in the state I am in. And this hotel where I went was, so it was paid by my

savings that I really spent all my savings there. It was private place, but it was the best investment. I have a debt in my life. Beautiful. I totally, I totally know what you mean. The small things. Like I was told to find a psychiatrist. The doctors didn't give me a referral or someone to call that they knew, even though they knew people. And I think it was six hours sitting, looking at the phone. I could, I don't think, I think the rejection of them not being able to help me, it was too much even. And it's just, just putting off the phone. Yeah. But enough. This is what your story, and I'd like to go into the inspire section. So maybe you can also now cover from that turning

point, how you got help and what kind of help you got. You mentioned you're in this clinic. Can you describe your time there? Yeah, I can describe my time there. And I have to smile because it was amazing. I got so much there because it was some kind of holistic approach that they had. You had typical one-on-one therapy. You had group therapies. But a big part was also going out in nature because it was in the mountains. So we had to do hikes and walks every day. And my therapist also did mountain biking. So he did mountain bike tours with me and I didn't do that before. So that was my first time. We had yoga. We had,

it's some kind of therapy where you, it's like theater, you know, where you also do like theater parts. We did music. We did, we did some kind of even energetic works. You know, it was really, and the day was really filled with all these things that we did there, therapies and also other activations. And for me, so I have to start, like I came there as a zombie because I lost a lot of weight as well. And I didn't sleep, you know, for weeks I didn't sleep. So I was mentally in a very bad state, physically in a very bad state. I didn't do much training or whatever, you know, I was just at home. And so I also was, they also put me on medication because they said in the state

so they, so they, so they, so just for their, for their own safety, you know, so they, they have to do it with their, their rules that they set in this place. And, um, so they gave me some medication for sleep, which was something that it doesn't make you dependent. So it's, it's some kind of anti-depression and helps you to sleep, you know, but you don't get, it's not this usual, how do you call that in English? Like it's not this, that makes you dependent because I said, you know, I usually don't take any medicine. And now if you put me full with medicine, I don't know if that's, if that will help me. And they gave me, give me also anti-depressant.

What the first thing that I experienced after three days of sleeping, that I felt already different. So I felt already, I came already back a little bit. Uh, I came back to myself, you know, and I remember the third day, my therapist, they went up with me on the mountain on Raks, which is 2000 meters high. It's close to Vienna mountain. And we went up, but we went up with skis. I had a Sherpa. He was carrying, carrying my skis because it was already May and there were, there were no snow down on the, on the mountain. So he was carrying these skis for me, but I had these boots, you know, these ski boots, uh, walking boots that you need. This is this, and they were,

I think, uh, three numbers too big for me. And I had to walk up this mountain, you know, and I was furious. I was like, what is this guy doing to me? And I'm so, you know, I was still in this victim state and he can't do this with me walking up there on this mountain and I'm too weak. And I was complaining a lot walking up this mountain, you know, but I had this, this guy who was carrying my, my skis and he was really kind and walking next to me and staying with me. He didn't say much, you know,

he let me talk. And, uh, I was really angry with the therapist who wasn't, he was already further up. And, uh, and I was like, how can he do that? And, you know, after a few hours, I was up on this mountain, um, still angry, but then he said to us that we should just like have a few, you know,

turn around and have a few. And then I was like, wow. And look down, I went up this mountain, you know, and then there was this, uh, slope. There was, that is usually in the shade, there was still snow.

And then I took on these skis and I skied down the hill. And, you know, this was really first, like that I saw, oh wow, I really climbed up that mountain. And now, and I drove down on my skis, and I love skiing, you know, and I drove down and could never imagine that I can even do that, you know? And this therapist for me was, he was really great because he really knew how far he can

go with me and that he really put me out of my comfort zone, but never into my alarm zone. So I was always in this zone between. And this experience that I could really make that, that changed something in me. And at the same, what he also did with me was he went up on a mountain, mountain biking, also on a hill opposite of where the hotel is. And then he said, look, we are on the other side. And then I saw this, how far I went up, you know? And I was also a little bit angry and furious, but he was beside me and he was just motivating me and telling me stories, you know? And it was really,

that was really powerful. So, so really seeing, oh, and I think that was the turning point that I said before, like when I realized in this place that it's not the others that have to help me, it's myself. I have to help me and I can take responsibility and I can create and I can decide what I want to do,

you know? Because I was a lot influenced by others, you know, and I always wanted to please and all these kinds of things. I wanted to be loved and so, and really just bringing it back. What do I want? What do I need? And that's what, what was the biggest learning there at this place? You know, I am the creator of my life. And then use this help that you get there, all the things that you do there, you know, use this, what you get there and, um, and, and change your life and, you know, experience what, what you want to do with your life. I always had this, um, picture that my wings were

cutted, you know, when I was a child, I couldn't really develop. I couldn't really spread my wings because they were even, they weren't, they weren't even there because I couldn't really do and live what I wanted to live. And that was the first time really where I realized, yeah, yeah, I can, I have to take responsibility and I can't do it. Yeah. Wow. You're doing a great job for the inspire section. That's a great story. I mean,

I think it's, it was nice that your therapist or trainer that was side by side to you has helped you visualize the possibilities and the fact that the tracks from the hotel, you could actually see what you'd achieved. So super nice. In terms of them, you mentioned already the mindset change. Can you talk about some of the lifestyle changes you maybe picked, you learned from your experience

in the hotel and, and how you, you took that in back to, to your personal life? Yeah. That sounds maybe a little bit strange, but it was some kind of also spiritual journey for me

because it really felt afterwards like, um, a wake up call. If you want, I was took this positive energy with me. There was so much energy, different energy, you know, in me. And it felt also a little bit like a spiritual journey. And, uh, uh, we, we had also yoga and meditation there and also art therapy. So I had also art therapy at the place, which was something that I, I studied then. So I studied art therapy and the yoga and meditation was not new for me, but, uh, I didn't do it for a few years. Okay. So I stopped doing yoga and meditation and I really forgot that that could help me in my state. You know, you forget about everything that can help you when you are coming to a

certain state. And, uh, I didn't practice it for a few years. And that was something that came back to me as well. And, uh, where I really intensified it. And I also went to India the first time in 2010, after this, um, this burnout, uh, journey that I have to mention something that I'm really happy to today that it happened to me, I have to say. So it was really important for me because it was life changing. It was really life changing. So I'm very, I can be grateful today. That sounds maybe strange and it was really not easy, but today I can really say that it was, uh, a gift. It was really a gift

for me to become who I am, who I really am. And meditation and yoga is for me a superpower here. Um, yeah, something that I took and nature going out in nature, being connected with our,

we say in German Lebensgrundlage, so the basis of life, you know, I think more and more people get disconnected. We are nature. So, so, so really spending time in, in nature, connecting with the spaces is a superpower for me as well.

That's certainly a common theme from the people who I've talked to with burnout, uh, living in the center of Vienna, it's, um, there are plenty of green spaces. And I think the real, the real, um, the real power is getting out into the woods and that's something I never liked doing in the past, but I can see that changing and has changed. What, what about your eating habits, your sleep rituals? What about your attitude to work? How did that also change?

Um, oh yeah, sleeping because you say this now that there was also the yoga that helped me. There was, you know, I will, I told you that I had this, um, medication, the sleeping medication. And I remember, so I was there in May, June in the therapy hotel. And in September, I, I went to, um,

I started a film project again, uh, in Berlin and, uh, you have this long days when you are on a film, movie project. Okay. So you have this 12 hours working days, so 10, 12 hours. And, uh,

but I was, I was really taking care of me because this was like a test because a colleague said, Hey, come, you don't have the responsibility. You work with me and you can really take care. So that was really helpful that, uh, she invited me for this project and I really took care of myself. Uh, and I went in the evenings to this, um, which is not the usual style of yoga that I'm doing, but I went to this hot yoga classes. Okay. Bikram yoga. Bikram yoga. Yeah. So some places don't call it Bikram anymore because he has a lot of, there were a lot of negative stories with him. So they call it often

hot yoga now or different kind. And because it was, uh, autumn and it turned already cold in the evening. So I thought I tried that out and that's what I did two, three times a week. And that's how I stopped my sleeping medication because I felt like exhausted, but on a very good way, you know, there's different, you can feel different exhausted and you really feel cozy, exhausted, and you felt really soft. And so, and I, that's what helped me. And I felt super soft. And at one night I said, okay, I stopped. I don't take this anymore. I didn't stop it with a doctor. What you should really do, you know, but I thought, okay, I tried it. And from that day on, I never took this

medication anymore. And I slept very well. I was really interesting. I think it's a peace, finding peace in your mind and also in your body and doing this regularly that can really help you with sleep. And I'm also open to Ayurveda. So there is, you know, everybody has to find, I think, you have to find your ways, you know, but me, Ayurveda helped me a lot. Can you explain that to someone that doesn't know?

Ayurveda? Ayurveda is the oldest, how do they call it? It's the science of life. So the translation is science of life. Then you translate it from the Sanskrit. So it's, it comes from India. And they say it's the oldest healing method. It's a few thousand years old.

And there is Ayurvedic doctors. So it's a holistic way to look at, uh, at the person. So he will always look at the whole, your whole system. And he will ask you, he will ask you, how is your sleep? There is also the constitution types. So the doshas it's called. So it's also, they, they also resonate with the elements. So you have Vata, which is the airy element, and you have Pitta, which is the fire, and you have Kapha, which represents the water and the earth. So it's, um, it's a little bit similar if you know the Chinese medicine. So it has some similarities to this. And an Ayurvedic doctor can see it from the skin. He can see it from the tongue. So he can learn a lot of the tongue and of

the pulse. So there's different methods that they use and they use also medicine, but it's all plant paste medicine. What is very helpful for me in Ayurveda is when I know my imbalances or so

that are expressed by this doshas can accordingly to this, I can find ways. What should I eat? What should I not eat? So for me, it's good to eat warm. So if I start my day with a porridge, I like to eat soups or I like to eat curries and things like that. So everything warm, but you know, not everybody

should or has to do it. And what's also good with Ayurveda is that you have regular rituals. So you get up at the same time in the morning, you go to sleep at the same time, you eat at the same time. This is what they, what, what the Ayurvedic doctor would tell you is very important to keep a healthy life, you know, like really be careful. And also, it's also some kind of schooling your intuition,

also finding out. So because the body talks to us, you know, we know this with, with burnout, it gives us a science and the body also gives us positive signs. It tells us if this is good for me now or not. Yeah. And Ayurveda is very much related also with yoga. So it's yoga and they go together. So also that you take care of your body, that you take care of your mind, that you take care, they also often include the soul, you know, the, however you want to call it, your deeper spark, whatever. Yeah. I'm seeing you light up as you talk about this. This is obviously one of your best pieces of advice, I'm sure. Is that an assumption? I mean, what, what is your best piece of advice or

insight that stuck with you and helped you move forward? Connecting with your true self. Like really, I think it's self-love. Training, really. Training, it's a training, you know. It doesn't always work or so. But really to be kind with yourself, train to love yourself, to talk to you as you would talk to your best friend, you know. Like if we observe ourselves, what, I mean, how often do you are you idiot to yourself because something didn't work. If you do that, just smile. I'm not an idiot. And, you know, just really try to change yourself in loving, being kind and loving. That's, that's the most important thing. And for me, it is yoga, meditation, connecting with nature, like having,

having good relationships with friends, like really true, honest, open relationship where I can be really myself and I can say everything that is important. I can share everything. So this is

a really important, I think, so that you, that you feel comfortable where you are and feel comfortable with yourself. But it's a step by step. It took me also away. It's not something that you do from,

I don't know, in a week or so. It's really takes time. And it's also okay if I fall back. And it's also okay if something happens. But how do I deal with myself when I fall back? So treat myself in a good way, in a loving and kind way. That's the most important thing.

I think, yeah, we can all speak to ourselves better. It's definitely listening to your body. That's one of my learnings as well. Because I, going back to the work environment, you're given or asked to do a task. Your body's screaming, no, you don't have capacity. But you say it anyway. So that's the change, right? It's listening to your body and responding in a polite, but rejecting manner. And, um, but it's also about the food. Um, are they stopping alcohol or, you know, is this, is this good for me right now? And actually, uh, I'm listening to my body. And, uh, would you say it's, it's listening to your body has brought you where you are today now?

Yeah. Listening to my body and to my inner spark, you know, some, you know, there is something, I don't know if we are all connected to it, but there is something, I don't know, there's something that I always explained, there's something that is always good. There is no right, no wrong. There isn't, there is, there's something in me that is always good. And finding this place and connecting with this place that helps a lot, you know, and listening to your body and also listening to the mind, because we sometimes think meditation, you're not allowed to have thoughts. Also your thoughts, including all the parts. When we come back to burnout, for me, it was like a separation. I

separated everything, you know, I wasn't separated to my true self. I wasn't separate. I was separated to my true self. I was separated to my emotions. I was separated to my, from my thoughts. I mean, they were just, they took over, you know, it was some kind of separations, you know, and with, with the things that I'm doing, listening to the body, also listening to your thoughts, you know, sometimes also listening to your dreams, you know, you get a lot of, in our system, there's a lot of things that, that come, but, but bringing all together, everything is important, you know,

and just bringing this mindfulness in as well, you know, this helps a lot, being aware of what's happening and accepting what's happening. And then I can change it, you know, just the awareness, being already happy. I'm aware that this second glass of red wine is not good for me anymore. I drank it now. Okay. And not, I punish myself. Ah, okay. I feel it doesn't do me good.

So next time I try not to drink this second glass of red wine or whatever it is, you know, I smoke, smoke cigarette, my, you, we all have different kinds of maybe addiction. For me, it is cheese, for example. Cheese. Cheese. So cheese was, in my burnout, I was eating a lot, I had to eat a lot of cheese, cheese, cheese, something I needed, you know, I was constantly running to the fridge, getting another piece of cheese, you know, and we all have our different kinds, but just when you do it the next time, it is, ah, again, I do it. Okay. Okay. I do it. And I, you, I even, I even do it, still do it. I do it consciously. I mean, I don't do it anymore.

Thanks God. But if it happens, you know, and I do it consciously, then I can change it because I'm aware of it. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe the cheese was affecting your sleep as well. Yeah, for sure.

I think we've moved it already over to the explore section, but, um, if you can share how you continue to manage your mental health now after coming out of burnout and you touched on yoga and meditation, maybe in your own words, if I, how do you continue to manage your mental health now?

So, um, I'm having my daily practice of yoga and meditation. So I'm doing that in the morning. And, uh, uh, at least for half an hour, usually for an hour or even longer. Um, and it's really, I really need that if I, if I don't do it. So, um, I can feel it. So then I have to take a little break into a little meditation or so it's really very helpful for me. That's my way. Um, uh, what, uh, uh, you know, as a tip, what I can also give, what, what I think what a lot of people help is to have little symbols that remind you, you know, you put like, yeah, for me, it's, uh,

I always have flowers in my house. Okay. So I will always put some flowers. That's something that reminds me. Or this, I touch, I like to touch my, touch my heart, really touch, get in touch with me.

Or I have some quotes, you know, in the house. So I have some postcards with quotes and, uh, what I am doing, what this is really, this practice. So that's, you know, I'm calling my work kindfulness is this being, being here, being present, being mindful, but also taking in

the kindness. So the love first for myself and really practicing that every day. Like what I said before, like really doing, I'm really, I'm really doing this every day. And, uh,

with, with little thing mindfulness, I like to wash up, you know, a lot of people don't do that. But for me, this is a practice of mindfulness. I'm really here washing up, don't doing anything else. And then it become, can become really a nice practice that you enjoy. And I'm practicing self love every day. I have, for example, for a long time, uh, uh, I practice before I went to sleep in bed already. I practice just this hugging myself, you know, just giving yourself a hug. That's what I did for a long time. Then maybe, you know, this, uh, gratitude journal. That's what I did for a long time. And now I can share that. Maybe, you know, the quote from Nelson Mandela. I don't know if,

if I shared that with you already, but there, he says, there's nothing to lose. You can either win or learn. And this is my practice. I do this for a few months now and I developed it out of just first of this quote. Uh, so every, every evening before I fell asleep, I asked myself, what did I learn today? And what did I win today? And that totally changes everything because we often blame others, yourself. And if I ask myself, what did I learn from this experiences that maybe were difficult or didn't feel very comfortable or so, then I go into a different state. I go, I learned something and it always brings me ease. And it releases a lot of tension when I do this in the, in the evening.

The winning is the easy part because we know what we win and the learning makes the difficult things that happen during the day easy. And this is such a wonderful practice that I can give everybody here. Like, just try it out. Yeah. If it also helps you, because when I'm allowed to learn something, wow, again, I, I, again, enter into the joy part, into the fun part. Ah, I can explore. Yeah, we are in the explore part here. That's where you can start to explore and do something new and different. Curiosity. Yeah. And curiosity. Yeah. That's so important that we are, we are more curious, you know, like we were when we were kids. Exactly. That's what this lore is about.

Maybe you can talk about your work now. I mean, kindfulness. I love the name of it. Maybe you can explain to the viewers how you want to bring kindfulness to the world,

working in teams and individuals and organizations. Yeah. Individuals. It's, um, um, there is this word coaching, but I prefer, uh, the word Bekleidung, Prozess Bekleidung in German, which I translated into companion in English. And I call myself a heart-based companion. So when I am this companion with individuals, teams, organizations, I really try to be here for others. I'm just like being here with them, experiencing different methods

to really bring change for these people. So these people usually come, you know, they want to change something. Either they want to do something new, different, or change something. And so I just explore with them on different methods, how they can change something. And a lot of people, so I have to

say it again, that's again, the heart part, the kindness part that comes in, we really don't love ourselves. So, and I really give tools as well, how we can come into this loving kindness. There is this meta meditation as well, or it's called loving kindness. It's a very good practice as well, to learn to love ourselves. And I think that's the most important part and it takes some time. So we really should take some time to really love ourselves and then also guide them and help them to love or to, I mean, love, you know, the love has different, so there can be this love that we have for our children. It can be the love that we have for our partner. And that can be this different kinds

of love that we can also give to people. So it's caring, maybe caring for others. So that's another part. So to learn this, so that relationships with ourselves, but also with others can change. And especially important has also to do with my burnout. So how can we better work together so that really the potential of the people can really come out, you know, can be seen and can be used and we can have much happier workplaces, you know, where people can really be themselves. There is, there's often that maybe, um, you have a different, you have a certain role in a company, but maybe you have some other talents as well that you can bring in and that bring you as a person that works there more

joy and also the whole company and the team, you know, and so that, that, that you are, you can be there also as a whole, you know, with, with everything that you have and that there is more joy in working.

I think if you have people that really love to come every day in your company, that is a healthy company, that can only be a healthy company. If you have these people that really like to come to work and they get up. I also do this meditation with people. It's not a meditation. It's more a kind of visioning practice. So what really motivates you to go out of bed every morning? Yeah. And also to find out what is it? Yeah. And, and am I really motivated or what could help me, you know, so that, that I happily get out of bed and go to work. So, yeah. So I really try organizations to get joyful and healthy organizations, happy organizations, teams and individuals. But I think

we always have to start with the individual and then go out in relationship with others. Also, then we also can create, you know, that's a bigger thing, but we maybe can create a better world together and a healthier planet as well. So self-care, care for others and care for the world or the planet. That's my, that's my work in a nutshell.

That's a powerful vision. And, uh, that's amazing. I know organizations are like trying to turn a giant cruise ship. Yeah. But I think the small steps make eventually a bigger effect. Do you see that in the work that you've done so far in organizations? Uh, yeah, maybe I share one thing that I've done recently. Uh, I mean, uh, I'm in an initiative that is called happy schools where we work with educators. So we don't work with students. So we work with educators and we have a project in the Ukraine. And in January, I went to Ukraine for a week where we had two trainings there. Yeah. One was with educators of a school and the other one was with headmasters. I think you say

to school directors. And, uh, it was just amazing. It was of course touching as well because it was in the Ukraine and it was amazing to see how important it is to take care of yourself and to take care of others and how that can really change how you work together. We get in the end, they were, both groups were telling us that they went on a different level of how they relate and talk to each other. You know, we also be doing a lot of, of listening and communication practices as well, you know, where you really deep listen. And they really said, it's like they have this family feeling. It got really to a different level, how they relate to each other and also

how they trust. Now they know that they can really say what is here. And they were so grateful and they were so into it. You could see the change because there were some people you saw on the first day that were not so much into it because, uh, especially in the collegium of the school, you know, they all had to go. So they all had to attend the training and you could feel some resistance as well on the first day, but you could see the change on the second day. And then like on a third day when these people were speaking up and sharing their stories and also those who were not so much into it on the

first day, it was, it was, it was amazing for me to see. And it's such a great work because so I can give something, but I also get something. So I learn, I teach something and I learn something.

It's very balanced out. And I think that's when you can really change something. And when you create spaces where people can really be themselves, where there's really trust, people can open up and

love that. That's, that's, that's what I like to, to give. Yeah. Really this, this spaces where we can better relate together and be our authentic self. And in Ukraine, that really worked out. That surprised me

because I was like, would that be possible in Austria and Germany as well with educators and headmasters, you know, to really go so deep was almost like a spiritual transformation as well.

And I, I think it's because they have this existential crisis of war at the moment. So that really opens up and opens also their heart and they really felt that gives, that it gives them strength to do this work. You know, they told us we don't just need this iron. We also need this work. It's so important. And you know, what we are doing here with this educator, so it will change their attitude and it will change the attitude towards the, the, the students as well. So they can experience something totally different because the teachers, they take more care of themselves. So they can also take better care of students and help them to grow and develop.

So powerful. Well, you're really getting involved in some fantastic initiatives. And I hope that not only reaches the education sector, but the corporate world as well, because I've seen what it's like to work in teams where there is no, that there is no trust. People cannot speak up their truth. It's essentially very toxic and it's very unhealthy. And I've also had the pleasure of working in teams where I did have the feeling I could speak my truth and I see it in the way you describe that story that took me back to that moment. So this is the new way of working. This is how it should be. And organizations should really take notes and aspire to get there. And with, with coaches like you, I'm sure

everything is possible and I wish you every success with that. Thank you. What excites you about the future then now that you've found better balance? What excites me about the future is that we have so many possibilities so we can go, you know, we often are in this autopilot where we just drive, you know, from here to there and we never take this little exits, you know, look around. So really

being more aware of, um, in, in process oriented psychology, they call it flirts, you know, like being aware of this flirts that come into your life. So maybe you meet somebody on the street, maybe you see something that excites you, just go and explore. Like really when you get some and something comes into your system, something that you're curious about, really take your time, take your energy and just not, you know, we often put it aside, just go there and explore what's behind that. And how can I, maybe I can then grow, develop out of this, you know, I can learn something new about me. So just stay into this curious of doing something new, learning something. Don't be afraid of people, of situations

or so be rather curious. And remember when you were as a child, you know, I think we all were these curious childs, these curious childs that didn't judge, you know, when we grow older, we always judge, just stay curious, open, be aware and see. Maybe I want to go deeper in this and explore that. So in the exploring, stay and explore life.

I think we're going to close to, we're close to wrapping up here. I mean, one more question. If you had to sum up your journey in one lesson or take away, what would it be?

What would it be? A big gift, as I said already. And I think I have to add something that I didn't say yet. Because it's important for listeners that suffer from a burnout. Because in my case, I really have to say I had to have this breakdown. I didn't stop. I didn't say no, I continued. And I just wanted to say, for me, to be reborn. Even if you have this breakdown, it's not the end of the world. There's just something that wants to go. And you have to let it go very mindfully, peacefully, with awareness,

and let something new come. Something new will be born. So even if it happens to you that you totally break down, learn to let it go gently and let the new come in. Beautiful words. Very calming as ever, Catherine, and inspiring. I've loved your story. I'm sure our viewers and listeners have too. How can our audience get in touch with you, connect, and if they want to to follow your work or story further? The best way is, if you go on her website, kindfulness, with one L, because Austrians and Germans often put two L, or kindfulness, you can also call it that way, .80 as well, kindfulness.80. That's the best way to reach out to me. You can

also come, if you live in Vienna, you can come to my yoga sessions. You find them also on my website. And there's also possibilities for workshops and retreats and coaching, of course. So

I invite you to my space, also to explore what you want to do with this one wild and precious life that is given to you. Superb, Catherine. Superb. I've obviously put all of your contact details and the website in the description for the viewers to get in touch. I've been to one of your yoga sessions, and yeah, yeah, it was very powerful. And especially for somebody so inflexible. It was very accommodating, and it wasn't intimidating, as I said to you during the class. So thank you for that. Thank you, Chris.

Thanks again for sharing your story today. I'm sure you will inspire others who are going through similar challenges. The work you're doing with kindfulness is inspiring, and I wish you every success. And I understand that you want to be a founding, one of the founding members of the Where I am at. So this is not the last time we hear or see Catherine. I'm very grateful of that. Obviously, you are multiple timelines ahead of me in terms of healing and journeys. It's not a comparison. It's just it's inspiring for me to get your wisdom and your words of encouragement, and

especially the flipping of perspective. I really appreciate learnings is one of them, not challenges. Not losing or challenges. Not losing, yeah. Would you have any final words, Catherine, before we wrap it up? I have one quote from Oscar Wilde that I would just say in the end. Is that okay?

Sure, go ahead. To love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance. Just let that quote inspire you and explore what it does to you when you listen to it. My name is Catherine, and that's where I'm at. That's great. Thanks for the community sign off. And to our listeners, remember burnout doesn't have to define you. There's always a path forward. Until the next episode. Thanks for listening or watching. Take care.

Thanks for being here for this one. If something in this conversation has stuck with you, share it. That's genuinely how this reaches people who need it. The Where I'm At community is in the description of today's conversation, hit home. Everything else is in there too. Guest links, where to follow the show.

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