Surviving and Reforming a Toxic Workplace — Karin Kradischnig

Welcome to the Share, Inspire and Explore podcast, the voice of the where I'm at burnout community. I'm Chris Wilson. And after my own journey through burnout and depression, I'm here to share real stories, inspire personal transformation and explore the path from burnout to balance. Each episode brings honest conversations with burnout survivors, mental health experts and mindset coaches offering lessons, strategies and hope. Whether you're recovering, curious or searching for motivation, this is your space to grow. Let's dive into today's episode. Welcome back to the Share, Inspire and Explore podcast. In today's episode, we continue our journey into one of the most misunderstood contributors to burnout, toxic workplace culture. But this time we're shifting the focus from survival to reform. What can you do if you're stuck in a toxic job but can't leave,

at least not yet? How do you protect your mental health when every day feels like a test of resilience? And when is the right time to walk away for good? HR expert Karin Kradischnig returns to the podcast to share practical strategies, hard-earned wisdom and a fresh look at what it really takes to shift workplace culture from the inside out. From navigating internal politics and emotional distancing to deciding when enough is enough. This episode is a toolkit for anyone trying to reclaim dignity, safety and purpose at work. Let's dive into part two of our series on toxic workplaces. Welcome back, Karen. How are you doing? Hi, Chris. I'm fine after summer break. I'm back. Thank you.

How was your summer break? Good? It was relaxing and good to get other perspective, which is also important. And then we are exactly in our topic, which is also important for getting a good distance to your workplace, even if you love it. Yeah. Yeah. So before we get into it, can you maybe briefly share to our new listeners a bit about your professional journey and what led you to focus on workplace culture? Yeah. Thank you, Chris. My professional journey is that I've been in HR now for around 20 years. I was working with different departments, supporting them. And I found out that it's a lot of a coaching work and a lot of a coaching work to do. So I got self-employed a few years ago and working as an

external expert, taking on interim assignments, HR interim assignments, but also focusing on coaching HR professionals to, well, to be, to have the right emotional distance to the challenges they face. And this is what I'm doing, what I'm doing within a network called HR for HR, where we offer quite a lot of more services for HR people. And our goal is that we really create good workplace environments. And that's a little bit about me. Excellent. Excellent initiative.

Just a quick disclaimer: this episode shares personal and professional insights. It's not medical, therapeutic or legal advice. So if you're facing serious workplace issues or mental health challenges, please seek support from qualified professionals.

So Karen, what are safe ways for employees to raise concerns in toxic workplaces? I know it's very hard. Yeah, that is true. It's very hard. Because if you're in a toxic workplace, it's all about trust. And probably in a toxic workplace, you are not sure who you can trust and who you can't trust. Usually a safe way is, first of all, you try to separate your own perception from interpretation. If you meet people who don't greet in the morning, for example, it's a perception, the interpretation would be, "Oh, they don't greet me, so maybe there's something wrong with me." Or I'm in a toxic environment. So this is the first step that you really try to separate that, that you look out for allies in the company where you can get a little bit of more objectivity.

Yeah, it broaden your perception that you have. And well, if you're sure what's happening, you can take the next step addressing it. And usually it can be in a company, either you have a works council within your company, or of course, you can also address it at HR. Yeah, maybe the company has also other institutionalized individuals where you can address it. Sometimes you also have a medical unit within your company. It depends on the size of your company. But first of all, make sure what is your perception and what is your interpretation. Get trusted allies within the company and then do the next step, either with support or you do it on your own. Sound advice. Sound advice.

So Karen, what legal or structural protections exists for employees via retaliation? Yeah. In Austria, we have to say that we have a very employee-friendly legal framework. And we also have quite some institutions. And if you want to have legal advice, you can first of all, either address a works council, if there is one in your company, or you turn to our chamber of labor that gives free advice on hotline. They have a hotline service where they can get free advice and also can give you advice on institution that can give you professional support. And it's very important that you really know in which terrain you are walking. You have to know, is it steep? Is it flat? What's the weather around you so you can go there and get sure about your legal backup that you have?

We know we already have listeners all over the world. So wherever you are, it's recommended you seek local legal aid or support. Yeah, that's true. And I'm sure that there are institutions everywhere. It doesn't matter how the legal situation is around you, the most important thing is that you know about it and that you know about your options. And then it's good to make sure. Following that, what support networks should people build before taking action? First of all, you have to take care about your personal support networks. So if you think about friends, if you think about family members, really people that you really can trust, that can give you other perspectives from an outside perspective.

This is always good to have your private networks, even if you're in a stressful situation because you're in a toxic environment. Never, ever leave your friends or family or other trusted individuals behind. They are important and they are important and they can strengthen you. So this is, first of all, your private network. And then, of course, you should also build, it needn't be a large network, but it's enough if you have one or two allies within the company that you trust, that are sparing partners on your situation and that can also help you coping with the situation. I mean, I know you work in HR and from previous HR episodes, what we learned is sometimes HR can itself be influenced by the company leadership or internal politics.

In this case, what should employees do if they feel HR is not acting in their best interests? Well, here you really have to have a close look. Are they influenced or are your HR partners doing their job because their job is somewhere in between employer and employee and usually, of course, they represent the company's interests. That's clear. But if you feel that they are influenced in negative ways, then it really gets tricky because if your HR doesn't ask the right questions and isn't critical towards the management and doesn't speak up when it comes to toxic situations, HR gets part of the process. If you have a problem and then you really have a problem and then you really have a problem, then it's really difficult.

But you really have to have a close look. Usually HR professionals, of course, I say that are doing the best, but of course, it can happen that there are really relationships that are not healthy for the workplace environment. And well, then it starts to get tricky. So if you feel that the HR professional is not only influenced, but really working against you, then you really have a problem. If you want to take the comparison with, for example, with the finance department, it would be the same like a finance manager embezzling money. So this is the same if an HR person is actively working against an employee and not acting in a transparent way. Then it's really, it's fueling the toxic work culture, of course.

Yes, yeah. Just a reminder before we move into this segment, while these strategies have helped others, every situation is different. This isn't a substitute for therapy or legal advice. Consider seeking a qualified professional for tailored support. Karen, if someone can't leave the job right away, what strategies can they use to stay mentally strong? It's not, if you are not able to leave right now, it's very important to focus on your, on your mental health, because it's really a challenging situation. So, first of all, it's important to take care of your, your healthy boundaries and to maintain emotional distance. And this sounds very easy. It is not, but there are, there are a few things that you can do.

And I want to, I want to stress as well that this is different for everyone. So, everyone is acting differently. So, these are just suggestions that I've seen or that I could imagine that could work. So, first of all, in order to get the distance, you could start with the local distancing. So, for example, you just make more use of your remote work options that you have. And then it's very important that you are clear about your availability. We've talked about that. Sometimes you're really working more and more and more and always available. No, you shouldn't do that. Make yourself clear about your availability. And you also have to communicate it and to agree upon your availability with your team members.

So that you really have good consensus on what your availability is. It has to be agreed upon, not only on your own, but also on the others. And then it's important that you plan your downtimes and the time for recovery, your recovery hours. You have to plan them actively. And very often, this is very difficult. You have to stick to it. So, if you don't respect your recovery hours, why should other people do? So, first communicate, then plan your recovery hour, and then respect your recovery hours. That's a great point. Love that. Respect your downtime. Respect your downtime. And if you don't do it yourself, no one else will do it. And, of course, you should watch out for professional help or support.

So, on the one hand, your private network, family, friends, everything that's nourishing for you. And on the flip side, you can also think about coaching or really longer periods that you take, for example, in some health institutions that really focus on your mental health, but also on your physical health. But we know anyway that they go together and they are connected very tightly.

Before we discuss when to leave versus when to stay, these are reflective tools, not clinical advice. What's right for one person may not be for another. So, at what point should someone seriously consider leaving a toxic job? And how can they assess if the situation is flexible or not, Karen? Well, you should not leave and run away. You should really do the decision based on a reflection of your situation. And, first of all, you might have a look about the perspectives and think about it if this toxic situation could change if there is a perspective. This is the first thing. If you see that this won't be changed because the toxicity is everywhere, then you might leave.

But usually it isn't. Usually, you know, we are in a changing environment. Everything changes. So, change is, it could change. Yeah, that's clear. And if you think and reflect about your situation, first of all, you should have a close look of what are the benefits in your jobs. Still, if you feel that you don't like to go there, still there are benefits and reflect about what is important for you. Is it your colleagues? Is it the salary? Is it the job security? Or is it because your job is just so interesting? So, you really have to have to see what are the benefits in this job for you. Something like a pro con list. And then you see on the flip side, what does it really make hard for you to work in this job?

And then if you have this list, you may figure out that there are some no-goes and then the decision is clear. If you have the feeling that there are some things maybe not so important on the con list and some things on the benefits list are very important, you might give it another chance and put more effort in staying. And, well, this is the first thing. And then you think about realistic opportunities, how you could change it. So, you have to differentiate are there things that are fixed and I can change and where are the things that I can change. For example, changes can be if you're in a large scale company, probably it's possible to move on to another department.

So, you still have the job security or the interesting surrounding or whatever you feel is a benefit to you. So, internal change could be something. Then, sometimes it's also that maybe you're not so satisfied in a project. So, maybe you can get into another project and find a solution for the ongoing project. So, there are opportunities to change. If I can just interrupt you. Yeah. It takes a lot of energy to apply for new jobs, you know. So, also on the list, do I have, can my body take that additional stress and workload when applying for new jobs? Maybe, maybe I wait a certain period before taking action. Yeah. What you have to do is to make a clear decision that you are waiting and you have to be confident about the time you are going to wait.

So, how much time are you going or are you willing to wait until something changes? Mm-hmm. So, waiting is one option, but it's not the only one. Always have a look at the things that you can influence and that you can proactively change. And the only thing that you can change is how you behave and what you do and how you distance yourself and how you deal with the environment. It's also probably, it's important not to react, feed that toxicity, because that's essentially what they want. It's their supply to create chaos, to create this. This is, this is totally, totally right, because if you react immediately, probably it's very emotional and sometimes it can also happen that you blame other people and then it again fuels toxicity.

So, really stay with yourself, say what you perceive and nothing more, nothing less and gain time. So, time is so important just to breathe. And you can also ask that you can say, okay, let me think about it. I don't have to react on that right now. And you can address it. And with that, you gain the distance. So, not only the local distance, if you think of free mode work, but you can also the distance that you need from a reaction point of view. So, you don't have to rush, rush, rush. If you want to slow down, you have to slow down. The others won't slow down. You have to do it. Exactly. You're in control.

And we've said it before, you know, trust your gut. Once you start trusting your gut, I think this is, you know, you can, you realize, ah, that was, I was right. Not to say no in that situation. I was right to set boundaries. And you build the confidence. I wasn't, I wasn't setting boundaries. I was an open, open door. Yeah. For many things. But it's important to trust your gut. If it's, if you think it's time to leave and you've tried these strategies, maybe, you know, already in the early, before the strategies, I need to leave. This is a hundred percent never going to change. And, um, maybe that's the way to go. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. That's, that's right. You really have to. So if you, if you say trust your gut, I'm totally with you, but your gut sometimes also leads you. If you, therefore I said in the beginning, you really have to differentiate between perception and interpretation because your gut sometimes makes you interpret on things that aren't true. So that's really a combination of, of many things. And it's, it's, it needs, it needs really a lot of awareness and to, if we really go to prevent, to prevention, you really have to set your boundaries before you get into a toxic workplace. So it's also okay to have boundaries if there's a workplace that's really nice. You have to be clear about where is it, how long, where are your boundaries, where it's easy for you.

And when does it, does it start to get, to get difficult. And then really be sensitive about the signals that your body sends you, sends you, sends out about your, yeah, about everything you, your experience. Exactly. Yeah. It's a very fair point. Maybe your gut is not the way to go. And I guess if you write down this list, you know, you're, you're eliminating these perceptions, as you mentioned. Exactly. And what I'm thinking, is that really the case? Is that really so extreme? And so, yeah, it's to, to move this rumination from your head onto paper and then maybe even consult your family. Hey, I've got this list. Can you go, go through the list with me?

And maybe another rationale that would help. Yeah. Exactly. Because we, what we must not forget, if we are in stressful situations, we get very, very narrow. It's like a tunnel and it gets more and more and more. So with the list and with the pro and con and with your family, with your network, with things that nourish you, you can, you can open this as well. And those are the tools to work on it. And to make clear decisions that are not based on a gut feeling where it's very, very narrow, but they are based on, well, on, on more perspectives. And as you say, if you reach out to the network, maybe colleagues in these environments, it's hard to speak up.

And their likelihood is there are other colleagues in the same situation. And if you're reaching out to this network and they're explaining the same behaviors and patterns, then yeah, that one person becomes two people. You become three people. You become then a community. So then change can maybe happen as a collective, as opposed to one isolated voice. Maybe their emotional status. As you said, they're coming from this complaining, complaining, complaining, maybe negative. And it's, it's not clear thinking, even though what happened happened, that's not invalidate what happened, but, um, going through this list, you're then your head is clear and you have the facts. And I guess it's good to also document all of these patterns and behaviors as and when they happen, because then you have some sort of, uh, audit, personal audit, at least.

Yeah, that's true. And if you, if you really are calibrating also with colleagues within the company, it's easier to immediately have the focus on perception and interpretation. Maybe you have a situation in a team meeting where something is weird. And after the meeting, you can just ask the question, did only I perceive that? Or was it also, did you hear or see that as well? What is your, is that an interpretation or was there nothing? Am I just, is it just my gut? That is. I think so. You can really get, you can really get more. I mean, if you're talking about, about people working and interacting with each other, we are never, ever objective, but we can get a little bit more of other, of other perspectives inside.

So as we move on to the next segment, Karen, can workplaces change? You know, is culture change really possible and deeply toxic environments? So change is anyway, everywhere and anytime. Yeah. So we are changing constantly anyway. So yes, workplaces can change. The question is what energy does it need to change? So if you're talking about toxic workplace getting, getting worse, one individual is enough to make your workplace worse. If you're already in a, in a, in a, in a toxic situation, toxic culture needs really a lot of effort. And I would say it even needs a movement to make it better again. Again, it's not only one individual who can turn, who can turn the situation around.

It needs more individuals. It needs the management, of course, and it needs, yeah, it needs effort from, from multiple, multiple people around in the company, because one, one individual can't change, can't change the environment. And so what kind of structural steps can help toxic teams reform? Yeah. Well, here, HR plays, of course, a role because HR can support the leadership team with, on the one hand side, taking restructuring actions, changing the teams that may not be able to work with each other. And HR can also support that employees move from one department to the other and can also support, it's like, I have another metaphor, it's like tidying up your room and sometimes you have to get rid of the one or the other thing.

Sometimes it's really necessary if you have constant toxic behavior. In the end, if you don't want to have it in your company, you can give chances, you can work on the change, but at some point you have to terminate the contract with the specific employee if you can't move on. So, as I said, one individual can worsen it and restructuring helps. It helps if you have clear communication, clear feedback on behavior that you want to avoid, but also lots of feedback on behavior that is nourishing for the organization. So, everything that is good you have to promote, like it comes a little bit also from the positive leadership aspect and those are the things that you can do.

In fact, you always need the management on board. It takes one rotten apple to spoil the fruit bowl, right? That's true. It's important, I guess, employees look to see what happens from a company's perspective, how this is dealt with. Yeah. They really, this is something they are very sensitive on and they're very sensitive and really watching managers and how the management team, how they are working with each other. If the toxic element is removed, if you can just briefly describe the steps that HR takes going to that team or department to dig a bit deeper and maybe heal the damage that may have been caused. Well, to heal the damage, those are big, big words, but what are the steps?

The steps? Usually, as we said, toxic culture, toxic behavior is evolving slowly and you can't like have the steps. But first of all, you should have feedback loops. First of all, it's important that someone addresses the issue with HR. Then you have to take care that you have feedback loops. So, the individual with the toxic behavior should know what happens, what are the rules in the company and what do we think are signs of a good culture and what's the behavior you have in a good cultural environment. So, the individuals have to get the feedback and they have to get the chance to change. And there you already need the manager or the supervisor or the team lead.

They will observe how it's going and they are those who work with the team members with the others. So, this is a constant cycle of communication where you see, okay, where do we want to go? Where are we right now? And what is the movement that we are doing? And so, it's like really a development. And at some point where you see, and this is what you have to reflect with the team lead or with the manager or however it is done in the company. At some point, you have to find the solution and you have to be transparent with it. So, everyone has to know how much time are we going to take to fix it.

How much time we want to invest until we see change? What are the steps of change we want to see? And if you constantly don't see it, even if you put in a lot of effort, well, sometime you have to decide. And then it's a clear HR process. We will talk about that you can't go on like that. That you offer the termination of the contract and inform the team. And well, learn out of the episode you just have seen. And if you don't do it, if there's too much time wasted, the best people will leave the teams. If you don't take care about the good environment, the good people will leave first. So, it's also damage for the company.

It's the action that is taken. It's a beacon of hope and it gives people the courage to speak up. If it happens again somewhere else. You have to speak up and you have to address it because otherwise you can't work on it. Because it's such an underground noise. You have to address it. Without addressing, you won't change it. This is the only thing you can do. Address the things and keep yourself stable in a stable condition and in a well-distance position. And what I can also recommend if you find yourself in a, or if you, maybe you think you find yourself in a toxic situation. I have a really good book recommendation that really gives good guidance, which is Breaking Free from Toxic Leadership.

Okay. We're on the same page, obviously. It's very structured, gives some good advice. And well, Marcus, C&N and Claudia Schwinghammer, they really did a good job on giving a clear and structured guide through toxic environment.

So in our last segment, we're going to look ahead. The future of work and HR's role. And so Karen, if you can explain, are companies becoming more proactive about workplace toxicity and what would your message be to future generations entering the workforce? Yes. What I observed during the last years is that companies are much more proactive because they know how valuable a positive work environment is. And like it is very often is that it was triggered from an outside change, what we know as a skills shortage. So we sometimes really had trouble to get the right people in the right place. Since this is since the companies know right now how important people and people make the difference for the companies.

And this is why there is much more focus on workplace culture, because we always know the best people live first. So we really have to see how we retain our talent and, of course, how we can can attract new talents. And what we also see if we if we have a look into our society is that young people, yes, they want to have financial security and they want to have social security. But for them, it's also very important to have a balanced life on the one hand, on the one hand and on the flip side. They also want to feel well in the workplace and they address it. And this is something they definitely do better than generations before them who really focused on hard work and working more and more and more.

And this is not the solution. They find other solutions. Sometimes they are perceived as picky and so difficult to work with. But I guess this is just part of the change we are experiencing in the world and when they should go on. And what we have to do is that we really find a good balance between how can we make a company successful? Because this is also a task of all of every single employees within the company. How can we can we make the company successful? And on the other hand side, we will only experience success if we cooperate and if we treat each other in a respectful way so that it also makes fun to be at work.

Yeah, actually, I'm wearing my Ted Lasso. Believe. Yeah, we have to believe positive positive future workplaces and shake off the old older generations attitude like myself included. May I add something? We not only have to believe. So believe is the first step. And this is the most important step that we have a vision and that we know where we want to go. And the next thing is that we know what our single contribution is. As I said before, changing cultures is always a movement. We can only be many if everyone, every single person, every single individual starts with change, change behaviors. So there's much more awareness, obviously, as well, on behavior. Yeah, lately I heard my son, a 12 year old, discussing with a friend and they were talking about narcissistic behavior.

And I was like, wow, did I really get that right? Was I, was I really aware with the age of 12 that there's behavior like this? So obviously our society is already on another level about talking about how this behavior, what behavior can we experience and what behavior are we striving for? Made to my late thirties. Yeah. Yeah. It took me also quite a long time. Oh, that's great. Lovely story. So let's, I guess we can wrap up today's episode, Karen. If you could give one piece of advice to someone in a toxic workplace right now, what would it be? Yeah. So if you're in a toxic workplace, the first advice is take good care of yourself and take good care of your health.

Because if your, if your health is affected, the game could be over. And so that's very important. Take care of you and your, and your health. Then the second thing is pay attention to where you want to focus on. Focus on things that are nourishing, nourishing. If you're at work, it's, you might lose energy. So focus on the things that give you energy back. Then it's also very important to keep your long term vision in mind. What is my long term vision? Where do I want, where do I want to be? How do I want to feel? Which kind of, where do, what do I, what do I aim for? And with all that aspects, really, if you have to take decisions, always choose wisely.

We take so many decisions every day. And every day you have many decisions where you can decide for or against your health. Where you can decide for a good distance or against a good distance. So really choose wisely and seek the balance. Doesn't mean that you have to step back and put yourself out of everything that's not necessary. You just have to choose wisely. And the last one, so if you have troubles with doing the right decisions, just imagine you would give advice to a good friend of yours. So if a good friend of yours was in the same situation, what would you tell him or her? So consider yourself as your best friend first and then take one step after the other.

You needn't climb a mountain of 3,000 meters with one step. Take one step after the other and every step will take you closer to where you want to be. And just a final disclaimer. This episode is based on experience, shared understanding, not professional, medical or legal advice. For support, reach out to a qualified counselor, coach or legal aid provider. Thank you so much, Karen, for your incredible insights on this difficult topic. I've really enjoyed having you as guest and perhaps we'll hear you again in the future. Thank you, Chris, for your very interesting questions and for the opportunity of being here and talking about something that is important for the future of our workplaces. Thank you.

Thank you. So important. And again, believe. I'll once again leave a link in the description how our listeners or viewers can reach out to you professionally. So there you have it. Toxic workplaces are often a silent contributor to burnout. But as we've heard today, change is possible with the right awareness, tools and support. If you find this episode helpful, please follow, subscribe, leave a five star review and share it with someone who might need it. And remember, our where I'm at community has just launched. It's a safe place to connect with others navigating burnout, recovery and workplace culture. You'll find a link in the show notes. Until next time, take care. My name is Chris Wilson.

It's where I'm at. That's it for today on the share, inspire and explore podcast. I hope something resonated with you. A moment of clarity, encouragement, but just a reminder that you're not alone. If you find this helpful, share it with someone who might need it. Hit follow or subscribe to join us for future episodes. If you're new here, please check the link in the description to join the community. Burnout is tough, but it's also a chance to heal and rediscover what matters.

Thanks for being a part of this journey. And until next time, take care. Keep exploring what's possible. I'm Chris Wilson, and that's where I'm at.