Toxic Workplaces and HR's Role, Part 2 — Karin Kradischnig

Welcome back to Share, Inspire and Explore. This is part two of my conversation with Karin Kradischnig, HR expert and founder of Coaching for HR on the tough but important topic of toxic workplaces. Part one, we explored what toxic workplaces look like, how leadership often fuels them and the dilemma HR faces when they're caught in the middle.

If you missed that, I recommend going back to hear the full picture. In this episode, we move on to how, how HR can respond to toxic environments, how leadership must step up to take responsibility and what real cultural change might look like in practice. Let's get back into it. Before we go into the next section, this is a reminder, we're discussing culture and burnout from experience, not therapy.

If you're facing significant distress, please consult a qualified mental health or employment professional. So Karen, how do toxic environments contribute to burnout? What are some of the behavioral and emotional consequences employees might experience? What employees might experience or will experience is that their confidence is shaken and their mental health will erode. And again, it will not be like you broke a leg and suddenly it's broken, but it will continue. And they will lose trust, of course, trust in themselves, but also trust in their environment. So this is what can happen. And if you're in a really toxic environment, it can be supported, even or however you would like to name it. If there are, I call them tools from the toxic management toolbox are used.

Toxic management toolbox. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell you more. Maybe you know the one or the other. Some of the tools are very obvious and many people will know it. For example, micromanagement is very obvious. If you have someone who always wants to be on CC, immediately replies and pointing out your mistakes and that kind of thing. That's something that happens quite often. So micromanagement is one thing. Then another common thing is what we call a silent treatment and exclusion. When you're not invited for meetings or when decisions are made somewhere else and maybe you get to know it, maybe not. It depends. So it's just withholding information.

And some employees have all the information and some of them simply don't. So that's also one tool. Another common tool is overload through ambiguity. So one day you do this and the other day something completely different. And the third day you are asked, why didn't you do the thing like you did it on the first day? So the expectations are not clear. The priorities are shifting. There are last minute changes. And in fact, you can never do it right. It doesn't matter how hard you work, how hard you are trying. You will never do it right because it changes anyway.

Then the really mean ones, one is the tool that we call emotional blackmail, where people are tried to be manipulated by using guilt, fear, or obligation in order to control their behavior. And I want to give you an example. So common statements that you might have heard in the company context is, I see you're still sick, but you know your colleagues, they have so much work. Don't you consider to get back earlier? Or don't you want to stay longer? You see the workload is that high. Or on the positive side, yeah, you are the only one, I mean, you're full with work and then someone's doing, but you are the only one who can do it.

I know exactly. If I give it to your colleague, he or she won't do it that good as you do. Yeah. So this kind of manipulation that immediately triggers also your internal drivers that everyone of us brings.

So maybe you come to the office to make sure you're before the manager and then you don't leave before the manager. As a result, you can work from seven till late.

24-7, exactly. And we know anyway that presence, yeah, if you're present all the time with no breaking between, it's a vicious cycle. Yeah, you won't get more productive. You will do more mistakes. You will get more negative feedback. You will get more criticism. All of the signs that we've been talking about that show up in toxic environments. So this is the emotional blackmail thing. And then in my point of view, the worst thing, because it's so hard to detect, is gaslighting. There your trust in your own perception is eroded. And I want to tell you how it works. It works like that, for example, a manager tells you, but we've talked about that five times and you know exactly you've never been talking about that or telling you, but we agreed

on this or that. But you know exactly, no, you agreed on completely the other thing. So really turning like what happens so that if you're not very confident anyway anymore and if gaslighting is going on, your confidence will get less and less and less. And what you need if you don't have a lot of confidence would be trust. But with that toolbox, you won't get trust back. So I experienced gaslighting on my own and this is really hard to detect because you just can't believe it.

And therefore, it's so important that you have allies in the company so that you really can recalibrate, ask someone else, did you start taking notes? Because if gaslighting starts, usually those people working with gaslighting, they don't take notes. They don't write anything down. Of course, they tell you, ah, here, just a quick note. Just want to tell you. Just, ah, just see.

Then you never can, you never know, was it like that or was it different? There's no audit trail, no proof. That's, that's mental abuse. Let's call it what it is, changing the perception of your own reality and truth. I mean, I've seen, I've seen lots of those, of those behaviors and I'm never sure whether people who are doing it are doing it on purpose or if they are not aware of themselves. So we really have to take a close look at this and therefore it's also so important to address the things, to clearly say, this was what you just said, this was what I just heard, write things down. I really, I think sometimes people, people don't realize it.

And to be honest, on my own, when I had really, really stressful situations, it's also quite some time ago when I, when I managed a small team, I was so stressful that I didn't know on the day after what I've told them the day before. They started laughing and said, Karen, yesterday you told us something completely different. And then I was thinking about it and I thought, maybe they are right, but there, and this is the difference, there we had a, we had a trust for relationships. So they were able to tell me that. And I was more aware and I took more care about what I said and what I didn't say. And I started to write in fact, so that it couldn't happen anymore.

But when people constantly don't do that and constantly work on that and constantly always talk to one employee, not to the team. So you never know what was really going on. Then maybe, maybe it's on person, on purpose. We don't know. Just a reminder of someone that's listening, experiencing that, definitely go and get professional help.

What about, let's say the internal beliefs or personality traits? Can this make someone more vulnerable to burnout in these environments? You mentioned already not being secure with themselves. Can you maybe just expand shortly on that? For sure. For sure. It always has to do with personality traits and something that we call internal drivers. And to give you an example for internal drivers can be, you have to be perfect.

You have to please everyone. You have to be strong or you have to be fast. So these are those internal drivers that are good on the one hand, on the one hand, because they're motivating us. But they can also turn out to be bad. And if you connect it again with what happens in toxic workplaces, if you, for example, have the driver of being perfect and you're in an environment of high criticism and no appreciation, what are you going to do? You're going to work harder, harder, faster, doing more and never getting a result. A perfect storm. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's easy. And usually you don't have only one internal driver, but more of them. And then it starts like a vicious circle. You don't get the result. You work even harder. You don't get the result. You make less breaks. Then you don't get the results. Then you don't care about your hobbies anymore. And then about the families. Then you don't take your regular meals. Then you don't take breaks and you do more and more and more. And it gets worse and worse and worse. And well, and that's it. So it's can also, you can also observe it. If you are in a toxic environment, not all the employees are burned out. Those employees are burned out with very special internal drivers and not so committed to their

own boundaries or not aware of their boundaries. Do you think in the recruiting, certain leaders or managers seek out these people to take advantage? Because if those traits are so obvious. Yeah, those traits are so, I don't even think it's on a conscious space. I think this, most of those things, and this is why it's so hard to detect, is on an unconscious space. And for sure, there might be the one or the other manager or colleague can also be colleagues.

You know, and toxicity can also work from the colleague upwards to the manager. Yeah, it works in all directions. Sometimes, yeah, why not? But still, I think many of those mechanisms work on an unconscious basis. And therefore, it's so important to address it, to talk about it, to talk about what you just experience, because only if you try to talk about it, to see the patterns, only then you can do something against it. Yeah. And it's a matter of raising your own awareness of what's happening at the moment, and what has it to do with me and my personality. So, the major thing is know very well about your own personality, triggers, drivers, motivators, demotivators, history, whatever.

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Click the link in the description to join, and shape what's next. My name's Chris Wilson, and it's where I'm at. Thank you. If we can maybe move on to the red flags, and how to identify them early, let's start with how job seekers maybe can identify these toxic workplaces before they dive into the lion's den, so to say.

And also, maybe what are the warning signs during the hiring process? Can you maybe elaborate on that for me? Yeah, as we discussed before, you mentioned already, Glassdoor, Nunu, and whatever. So, if you're thinking about applying at another company, maybe you have a realistic look at these review platforms on the one hand. But that's not the only thing, because as we mentioned already, just take the tendency, but it needn't be true for the whole company. So, this is one thing. Another thing is that you follow the companies during your period of searching another job. So, follow the companies, and have a look if there are positions re-advertised regularly.

If there are many open positions, then of course you have to recheck, are there many open positions because the company is growing, or because the company is so big, or are there many positions in a very small company all the time, then there might be something wrong. You don't know, but at least it's a flag where it's worth to have a closer look when you are in the interview process afterwards. Take your notes about what you realize, about what you see, and what you hear before you're interviewed. And also, a good thing is, so ask your friends, ask your family members, does anyone know anybody working with this company? And get in touch with those people, yeah?

Tap into your network, talk with them, hear what they are saying. Maybe you think of who is working there. Would I like to work with those people? Yes or no? So, there are plenty of opportunities where you can, you will never know the truth, of course, but you can get a little bit of a feeling of how it could be, or what could be good questions to be asked during the interview process. I think that we can dedicate an entire podcast episode on applying for jobs, you know, especially those who've had burnout or are running from burnout. If we talk about HR's responsibility to addressing this toxicity, what is your role when it's reported? Well, if toxic behavior is reported, that's already a warning sign for HR, because as we

said before, usually it's not reported. And if it's reported, the first thing we have to do is to create a safe space for the employee. This is the first thing, because what we heard before, there's a lot of trust needed, and we can give trust in the first step. Because then, in the second step, we have to be careful and we have to closely listen. Is it what is perception? Is it what the employee tells us and what is already interpretation? And we have to find the balance between believing and supporting the employee, but also zooming out to the full picture.

And I would just like to mention a short example to figure out what is perception and what is interpretation. For example, an employee enters the office in the morning and not greeting anybody. This is the perception, not more, not less. And then there can be various interpretations. Employee one thinks, oh my God, he didn't sleep well. Or she, doesn't matter.

Employee, this is an interpretation already. Employee two thinks, he doesn't like me. Employee three thinks, this is just a rude person, not greeting in the morning. Employee four thinks, I know he or she has an important meeting, probably so highly concentrated that he or she forgot about us. So we have one perception and already four interpretations.

And this is what we have to keep in mind within HR if it comes to the reporting of toxicity is that we try to divide and help the employee as well to divide perception from personal interpretation.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, very interesting. And how can they do that? This is something that I mentioned before already. This is what they will offer them is that they shall try to find allies in their teams. Yeah. Who will support them. And maybe we help them to find ways constructively.

Yeah. And we also talk about the options. And well, that's the first aid we can give, so to say. But what is very important for me to say, as soon as there is something has happened, for example, I don't know, really discrimination or something like that, we are not allowed to keep it confidential. So any employee raising an issue with HR has to be aware that there are certain issues where we can't keep confidentiality because we are obliged as a company to care about our employees. And if there's really something where we say, oh, we can't do that anymore, then we have to talk about the thing because otherwise we would violate law. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then we really, really have to be careful also as an employee. Do I just want to have someone to talk to? Or is it really something where HR is obliged to speak up? And you'll have to care about that. If I can interrupt, do you then disclose this to the employee raising the concern that by law you have to know? Yeah, yeah.

So what is HR supposed to do? HR is supposed to have the best solution for both the employee and the company. So this should match. So first of all, you have to somehow create a safe space. But when is a space safe? It's also safe if you can be sure that the people you are talking to act in a transparent way and that they have an open and clear communication. So for sure, I would address that. And if the concern that is raised is on a different scale, yeah, it's like evolving toxic workplace mechanisms, then I would, on the one hand, I already mentioned, seek out for allies. Then what is also very important to start documenting on the one hand for your own, because sometimes if you write things down, then they appear different when you just talk about it.

And be very transparent and try to be as open with your communication as you can be. The documentation is also important on the one hand for the employee, but also for the company if things escalate legally or involve high-ranking stuff. Yeah, then it's very important. Yeah, this is what you can do. So we are on a, we really have to take a good balance between supporting the employee, taking the right legal actions and finding ways where everyone can get out in a stable condition again, so to say. It's quite a pity it gets to that stage. You know, HR have to protect the company's interests as a result of this toxic behavior. So do you have an example where you can share when this was put into practice?

Yes, I definitely have several examples, but there's one that immediately comes up my mind, thinking of a company that basically has a really, really good workplace culture. And there was one individual in a managing position showing, well, let's call it harmful activities around the workplace, had a good network within the company, worked for the company for many years, well-known, and so on and so on. And it was kind of a kind of toxic environment he created, and there was one employee really affected, but looked out for support and got it from a colleague. And then they started exactly the thing that I was talking about before. They started calibrating, they started analyzing, they started also documenting.

And then they went to a member of the executive board, they trusted a lot, so they went to this member of the executive board and addressed it. And they told the member of the executive board that they want to have it strictly confidential.

So they asked for external support, they supported the employees with coaching, with coaching activities. Of course, HR was involved, it was all done together with HR, it was just a few people who were involved. And in the end, they were very clear and the employees were supported. The manager, showing harmful behavior, was put into another role. They were also taking care for physical distance. And all in all, they managed that they really had a respect for the resolution. So it was done very quietly, behind the scenes. They were in a very cooperative way, talking to each other, and they really managed to handle it. But the thing is that you really have to work together.

And what was very, very clear at this moment, from the moment that it was addressed with the executive board member, it was very clear that no matter how valuable anybody is here in this company, toxic behavior is nothing that has to be shown in this company. So this was a very clear message, and though it was done for everyone involved in a way that they could still work there. And I mean, I think one of those affected colleagues did leave the company, but the others are still within the company, working together. The shift to a non-leading position was a good one. The other team is working on getting more non-toxic, so to say, and getting the better environment again.

But yeah, you can manage. And this is one of my best practice examples, because I know this was, yeah. It sounds like a huge coordinated effort, but it's great that, I mean, that's zero tolerance right there. That's good to know it can... It can flip, and it needs the ultimate support from the management team. So without this support, we don't know what would have happened, because the person, the individual we were talking about with the harmful behavior,

well, well established within the company. So without this clear message on the executive level, it might have been more difficult. Karen, what makes addressing toxicity particularly challenging for HR professionals? Yeah, so addressing toxic leadership is therefore challenging, as culture is ultimately shaped and maintained by leadership. So it's always a discussion, or you address it to your manager as well. So this, but also to your peers, of course. And what is challenging, first of all, is how much is it supported by your top leadership, or how much is toxic or a good workplace environment supported. But other barriers are that you feel a kind of normalization, because it's, well, you just get used to toxic behaviors, and this makes it more difficult to address it.

Then what is also difficult, if you have top performers in the company who act in a harmful or toxic way. So what do you do? Do you support the top performance, or do you support the good workplace? That's the kind of decision you have to take. And, well, if HR itself is not supported or seen as administrative stuff, so to say, then it's also very difficult. And it's also difficult to address if people have the feeling nothing changes, then they will stop addressing issues. So therefore, it's just a difficult, difficult thing to do. So what is very important, or what would make it, we were talking about the barriers. I would like to say, what would make it easy?

What would make it easy would be if in the company, everyone would have one ultimate goal. And this very clear goal is to build a culture of trust, respect, and transparency. And if this goal, and if this vision is very clear, and you're also acting according to this vision, then it's not easy, but it's much easier. Yeah, it's still delicate, but it's easier. But if you don't have trust, if you don't have respect in the company, it's not, no transparent communication, it's really a barrier to change something. So what can be done by HR and leadership to help solve this problem? Yeah, first of all, HR and leadership have to go together and hand in hand.

It's not an option to delegate the culture to HR. That's not enough. So they have to go together. And they shall not just react. They shall really shape conditions that support strong partnerships with leadership, so they can create a place where people feel free, safe, valued, and respected. So this is what can be done. So every tool you use, everything you do, it must be very clear that it's in the interest, not only of one or two HR people who are in the company, but of the whole leadership team. It has to be in your DNA, so to say. Yeah. Yeah. And what you can do, what you can do is, I mean, there are also some interventions that might be not so easy if you have already a toxic workplace environment.

But let's also think about what is it if we shape a neutral workplace environment, then I would definitely recommend a deep leadership development. So not a development just on the surface, but really where they are talking about trust, about their personalities, about their triggers, so that they can really develop together and really build a trust relationship. And for sure, you have to, you have this thing. So a workshop alone won't make a workplace healthy, but you have to have to stick on that continuously and you have to build the trust that leadership is really speaking in an open way with each other and in a trustful way as well. So feedback loops. Feedback loops, yeah, of course.

And then you can also establish systematic culture checks when onboarding or offboarding. We've been talking already about exit interviews as a very important part. But also, what are your newcomers saying, yeah? What are their impressions?

It's always the first insight and you're not used to it. The thing of normalization is not so big yet. So ask your newcomers, how are they feeling? Where do they struggle? What could be better? Et cetera, et cetera. So systematic culture checks. Then some companies are doing pulse surveys. So it's really short surveys where they just ask, do you feel safe? Do you think you can speak up? Is there something we can do better? Only takes five minutes or something like that. And so people can raise the concerns anonymously, but also can tell what goes well, of course, and what's fine. But you can do that as well. What is very important is not only do the pulse surveys, also do something with it.

If you do the pulse surveys and done, then nothing happens. You just skip it and use your time for something else. Because if people are about to say something and then they feel, okay, I'm addressing things all the time, but then nothing happens, they will stop addressing their issues. I guess the thoughts are always, can I be honest in these surveys? At least that was my experience.

Yeah, that's another. So you always have to be careful about how you are going to place the mix of tools. And if you have a really toxic workplace, you needn't start with a survey. You will need to start somewhere different. And maybe even having a close look, who are your cultural, who are your cultural cowboys or how are you, or cultural. Cultural cowboys. I like that.

So who are those people deteriorating your culture? And you will have to start with that. Energy vampires. Oh, culture vampires. Culture vampires. Who are your cultural vampires? Because supporting a good culture takes the effort of everyone. And you really have to be clear on that. And then make your culture visible in every system, everywhere you are. Do it in a very easy way. We've talked about that already. And my favorite example for that is ING. It was the bank I've been working with. And they have only three behaviors. And you can see them everywhere.

And they are in the performance reviews. They are in your onboarding information. They are everywhere. And those three behaviors are take it on and make it happen. So take responsibility to have it translated. Then always be one step ahead. So if you act like this, what would be the consequence? And the third behavior is help others to be successful. And this is a behavior that is also talked about in the performance reviews. And as soon as you have installed this behavior in the performance, of course, it's not perfect over there. But still you have three easy sentences you can look at every time if you want to take a decision. Have a look at it.

And you can ask yourself, am I taking on responsibility? Am I one step ahead? Or am I doing something that is outdated yet? And the third thing, if I'm doing that now, am I supporting others? Or is it just support for myself? And I found that really, really very impressive. It's so easy. But it's so impressive and it can really change because every decision, you can break it down to these three behaviors. It's simple and powerful. I like it. This is how it could be. And it has, you know, you have to be confronted with that all the time, every day. And then it gets more of, you can get more from what we've been talking before.

You can get more from the vision to how are we doing it? How do we act? That's great. As we wrap up part one of this powerful conversation on toxic workplaces, I want to thank you, Karen, for sharing those deeply insightful perspectives. Thank you. I'll leave a link in the description so our listeners can reach out to you professionally. Thank you so much. Thanks for the very interesting questions. And it's also good to, well, reflect from time to time on workplaces and how we can make them better. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. Thank you. And to listeners, just to recap, we explored what defines a toxic workplace, how it differs from a high-pressure but healthy environment,

and how these environments directly contribute to burnout. We also touched on the early warning signs employees should look out for even before accepting a job offer. But there's still more to discuss. And coming up in this series, what practical steps can HR actually take to shift workplace culture, and what you can do if you feel stuck in a toxic environment with limited options. We'll cover all that and more in the next episode. So to be sure to hit follow, rate the podcast, and share this episode with someone who might need it. And if you'd like to join the Where I'm At community for peer support and shared experiences, check the show notes for the links.

Until next time, remember, you deserve a workplace that values your well-being, not just your output. Take care. That's it for today on the Share, Inspire, and Explore podcast. I hope something resonated with you, a moment of clarity, encouragement,

or just a reminder that you're not alone. If you find this helpful, share it with someone who might need it. Hit follow or subscribe to join us for future episodes.

If you're new here, please check the link in the description to join the community. Burnout is tough, but it's also a chance to heal and rediscover what matters. Thanks for being a part of this journey.

And until next time, take care. Keep exploring what's possible. I'm Chris Wilson, and that's where I'm at.